Electric Motorbikes - ideas on the future?

[Puffs]

Electric motorbikes are becoming more & more available. In the test forum, David recently showed an example that probably was less expensive, but most of those bikes are still relatively expensive.

I think this development follows from the idea that electric vehicles do not pollute, do not use energy, and are required to save the planet from an ecological meltdown. Governments (at least here in the EU) actively sponsor electric cars in an effort to promote their use, but the growth in their numbers is still less than hoped for, particularly in some countries. Common perceived downsides are (still) a high price, low autonomy & too few charging stations. For normal commuting the latter 2 are of course no issue.

Technically these electric vehicles are facilitated by the development of much lighter & energy-rich lithium batteries. Conventional batteries are too weak & heavy for normal transport (but were used for vehicles like forklifts). Of course the energy used by the vehicle still needs to be generated somewhere (which still causes pollution), the batteries just store that energy, and feed it to the electric motors as required. Production of those batteries of course also a pollutes.

Since 2019 there is also a MotoE world cup (https://www.motogp.com/en/FIM+Enel+MotoE+World+Cup), in which they are using a bike produced by Energica as a basis https://www.energicamotorusa.com/ (probably enhanced a bit by the teams). In that cup, there are not many races, but in Misano (where the MotoGP is this & previous weekend) they competed, and seeing a race there caused me to look those bikes up. They are very heavy (in excess of 250kg, a MotoGP bike is 157kg dry), and they raced over I believe just 7 laps (MotoGP = 25). Lap times are comparable to those of the Moto3, the 250cc 4T singles (of maybe 80kg? Previously the 125cc 2T's.).

I found all that quite disappointing, yet fully in line with the earlier mentioned common experience. Even the currently most modern batteries are quite heavy, and wanting both strong power and a reasonable autonomy requires you to carry a lot of extra weight, which of course also needs to accelerated & braked.

I think that, in order to be fun, a bike should be light. Only when a next leap in battery technology is made, electric motorbikes become interesting. Any other views?

[DAVID THOMPSON]

i had a home made electric in 1960 it still will work but the batteries
have the same problems as back then too much cost
too long to charge not enough range and a speed that will get get you hit in the ass

and every government needs to get on the same page with the rules
so makers do not have to make so many different models

i have a subscription to a magazine that when i started getting it had electric bike projects in it..

they have gone away and it's adriano and the pi computers nothing about e-bikes
to help you build one
dave

[nice2day]

Hi Puffs. I find it quite funny that most people seem to think that we can get ALL our electricity out of "thin air" IE: by "Renewables" Solar and Wind Energy.
A few years back I worked out that to replace the UK's cars with electric power versions only (not including heavy lorries and vans) we would require around 100 new nuclear power stations. For an example if you had a 100HP car, which is a very low figure in todays standards, you will need to have at least 75 KILOWATTS of electric power!. Well that amount of power is enough for a street of houses and it's just ONE car! At the moment the tiny amount of electric cars is not putting too much of a strain on the electric generation of the nation but to completely replace the 30 MILLION+ cars (not to mention lorries and other goods vehicles which perhaps could double the requirement!) you will need vast amounts of new generators and massive disruption to the landscape as the massive amounts of new cabling for power transmission is installed. Of course all this new huge amount of construction and equipment is not going to cause ANY emissions is it ..its all going to be achieved without any power being required...cough cough.
NO... converting to electric vehicles is a huge con. What is required are small engined cars for ALL the population and a massive effort to halt and reverse the worlds' over-population. My belief is that this planet can easily cope with small amounts of pollution as long as the world is not overburdened with too many human beings. THIS is the answer.

[Puffs]

I think we're very much on the same page Les. When reading yours I thought I was going to mention all these things like pollution & power required for alternative methods, landscape, and particularly population, but you already did. Of course governments can continue to restrict the ecological footprint per person (and reduce the quality of our life by doing so), but the prime problem is of course that the number of people is too big.

You might have noticed I love numbers & formulas, if the Environmental Impact of the Total human population is EIT, the (average) environmental Footprint per Person is PF, and the total Number of people is N, then EIT = N*PF. Now EIT is too big to be supported by earth: the natural recovery processes take too long. That does not apply to all areas of impact, but to quite a few, and as a result it disturbs the balance of the various processes occurring on earth. Hence the climate changes, coastal areas will flood, and other assorted misery. We, as a species, only like a rather narrow environmental range to live in (as do most of the other life on earth).

So EIT needs to be reduced in order for earth to be able to sustain us. The governments try to do this (particularly in Europe, also in China, but less so elsewhere) by reducing PF, and that's what will hurt us. That's why two strokes have been banned, for instance. And... well, I'm not going to bother listing every consequence. But it's obvious that it's not PF that needs to be reduced, but EIT. The problem is that N is far too big. Not only in terms of environmental footprint that will hurt you, also in many other things. When the conditions are right to do some leisure activity, you'll find that 1000's of other people have found the same, and you'll be competing with those. So the beach is filled to the brim, for instance. Nice? I don't think so.

OK, but saying N is too big is easy, and yes, maybe we should have anticipated that earlier (say 100 years ago), but we didn't. We did not agree on that at the time, and reducing N elegantly now is not so easy. It is anticipated that the world population will reduce, in maybe 100 years time, due to natural developments, and even now few people subscribe to the view that N should reduce. There are several religions & social structures that encourage strong population growth, and most importantly (and that is probably the source): it is an evolutionary necessity. A species that is not focussed on growth (both in numbers, as well as quality of life) is likely to go extinct. We haven't. So our quest for growth is simply part of our evolutionary heritage.

We competed the shit out of all other species, and in fact, all of the world, and we won. And now it's time to take a step back and decide how we can survive - as a species. And how. What are our objectives? But the most important is that we should now realise that the game has changed dramatically, and that our evolutionary baggage, that brought us where we are now, is likely to cause our downfall. Earth can not support 100 billion people comfortably. Life will not be desirable. (And quite possibly this is why SETI will remain unsuccessful; no other previous civilisations survived this shift. Houston, we have a problem...)

Anyway, I just wanted to discuss electric motorbikes, which I feel are still just too heavy to be fun. And also, I think the details on the number of laps are not entirely correct, I believe the MotoGP guys do 27 in Misano (25 for the Moto2's).

[nice2day]

Hooray Puffs. we whole heartedly agree on something...you know what they say about certain minds thinking the same way..
I have also to apologise on "hi-jacking" your thread about electric bikes...my auto-response kicked in and away I went, but nothing is more insane than what is happening to the human race. (help...I'm off again) You mention the "self-limiting" aspect that will occur when the food becomes too rationed and the pleasure of everyday life is intolerable, but what you have to see is that new humans will know nothing other than the lives they are born into. Yes they might see historic imagery and stories but they will be in effect into a completely different world to the one we now enjoy (becoming less so of course) If the beaches are crowded shoulder to shoulder that will be the ONLY way they will have known it and it will be normal and thus acceptable to them. You can forget the pollution of mechanical things at that time as the very existence of billions of people just scrabbling to survive will be the overriding source of filth and pollution. You also have to remember that anyone born does not have to wait for any age in history to arrive, they just arrive in the future even a thousand years from now instantly and face their new lives from that time on earth and they will happen and it will be the future without any wait....It just needs to stop NOW.
The reason why nothing is being done about the catastrophic population increase is that jobs are created to feed the growth but importantly it is because obscenely rich people want to be even more obscenely rich. If I was very rich nothing would give me more pleasure than giving it away to people to help them if they needed help. Surely we could have jobs and make new things and have scientific advancement and new technology even though the world's population was being controlled and getting smaller?...I don't understand why not.
Rant over Puffs. ...back to your real thread.
I will make a comment about electric bikes shortly....I need a cup of tea at the moment
Les

[nice2day]

Hi Puffs about electric vehicles. In all cases I hate the fact that batteries are very heavy and they are very heavy even if they have very little charge in them or fully charged, unlike liquid fuels, where I can choose how much petrol I have in my tank. It just seems a waste of energy every time the vehicle accelerates or climbs a gradient where much more energy is used compared to a petrol fuelled vehicle. The energy required at a constant speed on level ground in nearly similar though. The very essence of me liking motorcycles is because they have a reciprocating internal combustion engine. The mechanics are fun (usually) and my brain likes to tinker with them to make them work nicely and this gives me a great deal of pleasure and I would say nearly as much as riding them. Having a switch on switch off electric motor motor does not do anything for me, unless of course it was a "Hybrid" type where a piston engine drives a generator. This type of system I can live with but not batteries and an electric motor only. OK if there is to be no choice such as "no electric bike then no motorcycling" well then maybe I would have one but since I don't have that many years to live I'm not considering this option seriously. Yes we have had the good life and the boring life is looming up very quickly and here I go again: It does NOT have to be like this, if only mankind stopped this relentless over-breading and selfish greed, the planet could work greenly and very nicely for hundreds of years to come. I reckon we could also synthesise petrol when the earths resource naturally runs out...Long live the internal combustion engine..it is a wonderful device.

Les

PS... I am not trying to be facetious or over sexual with this comment but I genuinely think the human mind, subconsciously, is attracted to the back and forth motion of a piston type engine (including steam engines) The back and forth action is burned into our brains at our conception and is intrinsic in the the very basis of reproduction in human procreation. So we empathise in a subconscious way with the reciprocating movement as a positive, natural, useful and enjoyable action. Rotary type engines have no primal comparison to our physical existence so do not have the same emotional connection.

Also the sound of an engine is important as sound is a conveyer of information that humans are naturally very tuned into. This is why we are thrilled to hear the sound of an engine. The actual type of engine sound appeals to different minds, they in effect, try to speak to us as does the sound of different types of instruments and music

Les

[Puffs]

Ta Les, we agree on much more than you may think. Only maybe not on the things I contest.
First some more on the topical derail:

The forecast that population numbers will drop is not due to 'self limiting' processes, like running out of food or a place to be. There are people studying this, and I do not know what those forecasts are based on, but it is a fact that in most European countries the indigenous population in declining, already now, same as in Japan. That is not because of food shortages. For one reason or another people decide to have fewer children. To some extent the same is happening also in India, but there the peak will be later. China has obviously had the 1-child policy (which limits the reproduction number to 0.5), and now that has been abandoned there is an increase, but still below 1. Africa forms the major growth area, as forecast for still quite some time to come.

More: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2 ... e-century/

That is not to say that IMO those 'self limiting processes' will not be coming. More & more I hear the advice not to eat meat, as eating meat requires too much land & resources (Soylent Green is coming). Also, one source of food shortages is seen to be that farmers now also choose to grow crops for biofuel, rather than food.

Of course we in the western world are still rich & lead a rich life, and have a large footprint (particularly in the US). This is especially so if you compare it with the life & footprint of, for instance, a newborn in poor rural Africa. It all comes down to choices people make.

I think it is exceptionally difficult to control human population levels elegantly. I mentioned the Chinese 1-child policy earlier, which was not very popular with the people, and by many in the west considered as 'inhuman'. And indeed has left China with significant demographic & economic problems, most still to come. But it is clear that scientific & technological developments (enhancing health care & nutrition) have changed the world:

Anyway, back to electric vehicles.
Yes, if you go uphill the extra weight costs energy. On larger vehicles (like trains & trucks, but maybe also some cars) that can be /is recovered. But on a bike the equipment required for that again adds more weight...

I don't have any experience with an electric motorcycle. Maybe I should try one. In addition to the weight, one other problem I see is the lack of noise. There is truth in the old saying 'Loud pipes save lives'. And of course, there is character...

On synthesising fuel: true, oil will run out sometime, but we already can grow biofuel. Brazil has a long history in alcohol (from sugar cane, I believe), and oils from various oil seeds (more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biofuel). In a fair & unbiased comparison, the internal combustion engine might actually be more favourable than the electric engine + batteries + central energy generation.

I'm not immediately convinced of the link between a piston engine & procreation. Ah well, maybe.

Anyway, I'm not considering to buy an electric motorbike either. I'd rather have a long stroke sidevalve.

[nice2day]

Hi Puffs. Yes I am sure we are always on the same wavelength. I guess both of us are warning or predicting that the worlds population is BECOMING too big. In my mind it is ALREADY too big. We do not need to project into the future with dire prophecies and warnings of the hell that is to come. Of course thing can and will get "worse" if the population continues to grow but IMO the population could perhaps be half of what it is now (I don't need figures) half the population would mean twice the space for everyone, half the pollution created by our existence, half the amount of animals that are butchered and they would have more humane lives before slaughter (if governments created laws to ensure this) and the poor old mega rich would only be half as mega rich (poor sods).

I think this planet could tick over in a very natural way ecologically, coping well with it's ability to digest pollution. There is an optimum population for human beings inhabiting this planet I think we are already far beyond that figure. Finally I am amazed that the rich countries of this world have never got together to fund the conversion of the Sahara Dessert back to a forest. After trees are grown I think the rainfall would come back and sustain them naturally. I say this as I was told that at one time in history it was once a forest? Not sure though.

Back to electric bikes...I do admire the electric cycles that are becoming very popular, so maybe if you take this one stage further I could be convinced that more powerful electric bikes have a future, especially if they are designed like scooters with good weather protection and they are the only powered vehicles allowed into cities for commuting...You certainly don't need gigantic 4x4's with one single occupant to travel to work locally. Then again what with COVID 19 and the more evil son's of Covid that are not yet born, will the future preclude all human travel anyway?

PS

I'd rather have a long stroke sidevalve

...Very humorous ...

[Puffs]

Well, I too consider the world currently severely overpopulated & see that as the source of many of our problems.

The UN is supposed to/could do several things, if ever there was agreement.

I'm not sure if planting trees in the Sahara zone is viable, and/or that it can currently support forests, even if they existed. Difficult problem involving jet stream & several other things. Deserts occur also elsewhere at that longitude (and mirrored on the southern hemisphere). Nevertheless, with continental drift etc, I'd expect that the land currently being Sahara has been forested at some time in the past.

Those electric bicycles (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle): on the road you hardly see any normal bicycles anymore, over the last 5-10 years they have become quite abundant. So I guess those have filled a niche & have a clear future. But they aren't really motorbikes though, IMO.

Electric mountain bikes are a specialised type of e-bike, and one of the other things I do is mountain biking. I do not (yet) have an electric motor in my MTB, but in all fairness, it does get to be a little bit intense. One the one hand I'm thinking: if I want a motor in my MTB, I'll just take the YZ, which is so much better. But on the other hand, an electric MTB has appeal too - light, silent & you get further that without that motor. Bloody expensive though (think 3-4k€ for a decent full suspension one), but of course you can rig something cheaper. Ach, I need the exercise.

No, I wasn't kidding. I would really like to have a long stroke sidevalve, like your Ariel. But the price needs to be right, and the bike too. Here in B there's not much on offer, only one's I saw were Sarolea, which aren't really long stroke, and actually too expensive for me. I'd like to have one, but that 'like' is only up to a certain level. But me buying a very expensive e-motorbike soon is even less likely.