Four stroke MZs

[JawasandMZs]

Do four stroke MZs have fan status like the 2 strokes? Were they entirely unique, from the ground up and unlike anything else like my ETZ is? Do they have conventions and fan meetings?
I was reading about their 600 single that was just a parts bin hash-up using bits from all over the place. Nothing that MZ had designed or built themselves. Sounds to me that MZ sold out a bit by trying to get Japanese and paid the price by going out of business!

[DAVID THOMPSON]

they knew how to make bikes but at least in the USA the sales dept fell on its face.. my rt125 has been a fine ride

the 1995 500 rotax Saxon Tour is well built but a strange little bike with its own personality

[Guesi]

It is not that simple.
After the end of the GDR nobody wanted to buy the "old" 2 stroke bikes.
The people in the former GDR now could buy Kawasaki and Co.
Other countries that bought bikes in the GDR times ( often in exchange with other goods) like " you give me bikes, I give you bananas or other goods) now had to pay in German Marks or Dollars.
The complete market broke down. About 3000 people lost their job in the MZ factory.
A small group of about 100 people tried to build some bikes who could be sold in the new market conditions.
And this had to be realized in a very short time.
So there was no time to build a complete new bike including all parts.
So they bought parts from international suppliers like engine from Yamaha, Front fork from Paioli, plastic parts from Acerbis etc.
Some parts they built themselves, like the frame.
And within a really short time they had the Skorpion 660.
But there still was that MZ sign on the tank....
And MZ had a reputation as a cheap "everyday" bike.
So why should the buyer take this bike if he can have a japanese bike for nearly the same price...
No one in the MZ factory worked for GDR Mark anymore, they all wanted Western DeutschMark....
So they had to charge similar prices than other producers.
So these bikes were not sold good.
They also produced the RT 125 4 Stroke bike.
This was their own production and they sold it very good here in germany. They had about 20% of all the 125 ccm bikes that were sold in Germany at that time.

But then the japanese realized that there was a market for 125 ccm bikes here and they made bikes that were cheaper than the MZ RT. Japanese bikes about 2500 €, MZ Rt about 3400 €.
So MZ sold less bikes and in the end they went bankrupt.

After all the number of produced bikes after the end of the GDR is far less than the 2 stroke bikes.
In consequence to this fact there are far less parts available and far less still running bikes.
For example the MZ1000 was built about 1000 times.
The ES 150 2 stroke MZ was built 900 000 times...

[Puffs]

Interesting to read the historical background, as seen from the inside - thanks!

I think MZ designed all bikes themselves, but of course they used suppliers (like all manufacturers do; Yamaha & co do not mine the ore either). For some bikes, possibly the earlier new ones after the Wall came down, they bought the complete engines (XT660 from Yamaha, ..500 from Rotax), but I believe the 125 and the 1000 engines they built themselves. Designing a production line for an entirely new engine is quite a big thing, and maybe that contributed to their demise? It's always a combination of various factors.

Yes, for the historical 2T's, which they were building since the 1920's or so in that factory, they probably made more, but also in the 2T DDR period they sometimes bought more complete parts (for instance the disk brakes from Brembo, later copied in-house). But I'd guess in those days it was more evolutionary (rather than revolutionary after the Wall fell). And buying more complete parts, like forks, shocks, engines, bearings, bulbs, coils, ... is still very much done by many manufacturers. Nobody makes everything, and production often is more like assembly of parts made on contract elsewhere. Some 'manufacturers' even contract-out that assembly to areas with lower manpower costs. It's all about the money.

[Guesi]

The Brembo brake was a contribution to the international market.
In the beginning this disc brake was only available on export bikes.
The GDR people still had to cope with the drum brake.
Buying something from a western-company meant to spend foreign currency.And this was quite rare in these times.

Surely not all the parts of the old 2 strokes were produced in the MZ factory. This would have been impossible. If you ever saw a picture of the old MZ factory, you know why.
The building was in a small valley, so there was no space to build a big factory.
The end- assembly took place in the MZ factory and some of the part production.
But many parts were delivered from outside.
But as all the factories in the GDR were "Volkseigen" means "nati9onally owned iut made no difference where the parts were built

Even for the new RT 125 and 1000 models there were suppliers who delivered parts for these models.
But this was not only a question of money, but also a question of capacity and know how...
Imagine 100 people of the MZ factory building a complete bike with all the different materials (plastic, metal, rubber, etc.)

[JawasandMZs]

Yes, thanks for the background which I appreciate and find v interesting. But my question still stands- do the MZ 4Ts have any classic value? On the topic of MZs and Jawas being nothing like Japanese bikes, they also differ a surprising amount from each other. For example, the MZ speedo runs off the rear sprocket: that of the Jawa from the g/box. Moreover, they feel, sound and even smell completely different to each other. You certainly couldn't say that of an H100S and RXS100.

[Puffs]

How they smell depends on the oil you put in, and value is driven by what people want. The 2Ts clearly stand out from the current norm, and get a peculiarity bonus. And are still quite usable & fun to ride.
Because both Jawas & MZs were produced in such large numbers, a secondary parts supply chain has emerged. Because of that you can keep them alive. That too has added to their long-term success & commercial desirability. As you saw I also have a '80 Suzuki SP400, and I can tell you: for that it is far more difficult to find parts. So few produced --> no commercial interest for traders --> no supply chain. Similar may happen with particularly the 1000's, of which too only low numbers were produced. The 660's have a Yamaha engine which will likely help things (but also there the long term outlook may be bleaker).

[Gerryman Ts125]

I went to Habana Cuba in 2013, and the place is teaming with Mz`s of all kinds. Mostly the Unitarian two stroke type though. Was even offered a shot of one, a ts 150 with a Chinese bikes front and back end and clocks. Complete with front and rear discs and alloys (the bloke that owned it worked in a garage and had welded the hub and sprocket onto the rear alloy) I have a photo of this bike somewhere on one of my old phones. I`ll charge it up and try to get a copy

[tigcraft]

I owned two Skorpion sports,one a short time, the second many years which I sold a year ago and non went up in value although non depreciated either. They seem just at ‘stale mate’ point.
Generally speaking if a bike is popular in its hay day it collects many memories for its riders then many years down the line it would become desirable again as owners want to rekindle nostalgia. The more riders of that type of bike will keep prices up. On the other side you could have a rare cult bike, something iconic, which in this case few riders owned but also because that bike formed a vision or aura, a bike you’ve always wanted but never could buy, that then becomes another appreciating asset. Then the last one would be the bike nobody ever heard of even though it might have been fun, brilliant and so on but if nobody ever rode one then nobody would have built up any fond memories of it. That’s where the four stroke MZs fall into and unfortunately become ‘forgotten’ bikes and prices never really do much.

[Puffs]

Some people make a living out of the psychology of value. Not me, but I do believe there are many angles to it, many more than mentioned in this thread.

I'd just like to have a light, nimble & torquey single again, and a good 660 might qualify.

[TheFlyingPolak]

From my experience I too can say that 4 stroke MZs don't have much of a fan following, but are rather an obscure and almost forgotten part of history.

The 2 strokes they were cult classics in the eastern bloc especially, including my native Poland, because as far as I know they were among the best bikes that were available and were seen as a bit of a status symbol partially because they're German bikes. As others mentioned in this thread, the 4 stroke MZs were an attempt to stay afloat on the western market which was by then open to the eastern bloc too. So it's understandable why they aren't so fondly remembered or widely available today.

Even I haven't heard of 4 stroke MZs when I bought my 500cc Saxon Tour as my first bike, but I became familiar with the bike and its history out of necessity to keep the bike in working order. I met a Hungarian in a previous job, who owned 2 stroke MZs, Jawas, Simsons, etc, but never heard of the 4 strokes. A random English guy who stopped by on the street to look at the bike also didn't hear of it, even though he was familiar with MZ. Of course, the bike does turn heads because it's unique and uncommon and stands out. So now I strongly feel like I'm in possession of an obscure piece of history. I intend to hold on to the bike and hopefully rebuild it in the future. If I'm ever to sell it, it's probably either to a collector familiar with this obscure machine, or to be scrapped.

[Puffs]

Keep it & ride it - it's a nice bike!

And from now on, value can only go up, I'd guess.